Kesher Talk

BEGALA: Aaron, thank you very much, and thank Matthew Chance for that report from the Middle East.

How much will this latest Israeli attack in Gaza hurt the peace process? In the CROSSFIRE now, James Zogby of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee who came over just moments ago as this news was breaking, good enough to loan us his time. And Clifford May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

Jim, it's the American-Arab Institute. I always get that wrong. Sorry. Get that in the wrong order. This attack, the target
apparently from Matthew Chance's report, which is all I have now and wire copy, the target was the founder of the military wing of Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization, right?

JAMES ZOGBY, ARAB-AMERICAN INSTITUTE: Hamas has committed terrorist acts at hands. They also have hospitals and other social institutions that they run, but it has committed acts of terrorism. I have had no problems over the years in condemning them. They are wrong in what they've done, and they've exacerbated, I think, the problem. But as well Israel has exacerbated the problem going the other way.

There is no solution to violence by simply accelerating the violence. As Palestinians have had to learn and have to learn that violence isn't the end -- isn't the way to answer the occupation, Israelis have to learn that occupation and more violence isn't the way to stop the violence.

The way to stop it is, in fact, with a peace process. But we have never really gotten there. You know, I mean, the violence has
continued through all these years. He made a very important point when he noted that it was the assassination of Yahya Ayash that, in fact, exacerbated and ended a very prolonged period of calm back in the mid-'90s. The fact is that every time Israel takes this kind of position, it ends up simply creating a new round, and that's what we've got now. And it's a terrible tragedy, but America has to act to stop it.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Cliff, I'm interested, I don't think anybody, certainly not on this set, probably not around the world, is going to grieve really for the death of the founder of the military leader of Hamas. On the other hand, does strike me as kind of a blunt instrument that Israel used here, lobbing a missile into a building, killing a number of children, wounding 150 people. They are a very technologically advanced country, Israel, very. A lot of nuclear weapons. And yet there is this theme in its military operations that they tend to be blunt, bulldozing people's houses, strikes me as unnecessary and that it draws sympathy away in the international world from Israel.

CLIFF MAY, FEDERATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I think it does. But I think you also have to understand it's difficult to be subtle and use finesse in these circumstances. Hamas, as Jim rightly says, is a terrorist organization. Scores and scores of Israelis, citizens, not soldiers, not settlers, innocent children have been murdered by this terrorist organization, whose stated aim -- and it is candid about this -- is to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. That's what it intends to do, it doesn't kid around about that.

Now, it is important to recognize that Hamas leadership has been based in the -- in Gaza City. And Gaza City is a place the Israelis have not made incursions. They have not gone in there. If they did, it would be like Jenin, fighting door to door, plus there are bobby traps, plus there are roadblocks -- very hard to get in there.

Here is the real unfortunate part of this. Yasser Arafat had an obligation under the Oslo agreement. Under that agreement, he would get authority over the Gaza Strip, over the West Bank, and he was to use that authority to wipe out terrorism in those areas. He never did. And particularly Hamas in the Gaza Strip -- let me just finish, Jim, and then I promise I'll let you get back in -- you have the Hamas leadership living in villas by the sea, visited with their family by journalists as they play pool in their households, they lived perfectly openly, and unfortunately Arafat never went in and made the arrests he could have, and by the way...

ZOGBY: Actually, he did. Let's be clear with the record.

MAY: If he arrested this guy, he wouldn't be in his house with his family...

ZOGBY: Yet Arafat has been under arrest himself now for many, many months. The fact is that Arafat was able to do during the mid- '90s quite a bit to stem the tide of violence. What ended it was the assassination policy. What ended it was the settlement building. What ended it was the fact that the Netanyahu government, despite the appeals of this administration here in the United States, continued to provide obstacles and roadblocks.

You cannot have the authority in control with 60 percent unemployment, with 70 percent of the population in poverty.

MAY: All of this got worse once Arafat came back.

ZOGBY: No, it did not. In fact, in fact, what happened was Israel set up a protectionist -- almost -- have you been to Gaza? I have. It is like a concentration camp. Frankly speaking, it is.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: No, it has been a concentration camp before Oslo, and it got worse after.

MAY: Here is when it got worse. President Clinton took Yasser Arafat and he took Prime Minister Barak to Camp David and he sat them down and he made Barak offer Arafat everything he had ever asked for before...

ZOGBY: That's not true. And don't perpetuate this.

MAY: An independent state...

ZOGBY: It is not true.

MAY: Ninety-seven percent of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, a capital in Jerusalem, the end to the settlement. He said no to that and sent off a wave of terrorism.

ZOGBY: That is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MAY: Now, that's the truth and you're trying to revise history. Everybody knows that's the way it was.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: ... end the distortions now. He did not -- he did not...

MAY: Clinton says so, Dennis Ross (ph) says so, who doesn't say so? Other than yourself and a few people who are Arafat sympathizers.

ZOGBY: In fact, Shlomo Ben-Ami and Yossi Beilin who are, in fact, chief negotiators on the Israeli side said that simply wasn't true. Understand -- if you want this, you have to deal with realities. are that Palestinians didn't get a generous offer from Barak.

MAY: Hamas wants to wipe out Israel.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: And Israel, under the current government, does not want to do anything but wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.

CARLSON: Let me ask you this question...

ZOGBY: We have a problem here. Both sides have a problem, and America has to play the middle road. We have not played the middle road since this administration was in place.

CARLSON: Nobody is arguing that the character who was assassinated today didn't deserve to be assassinated, but I think Mr. Zogby raises an interesting question, which is: Will Israel's action today reduce the number of suicide bombings, will it make the citizens of Israel any safer or will it make Palestinians any safer? It's hard to believe that it really will. Do you think it will?

MAY: Hamas is an organization dedicated to destruction of Israel through terrorism. I don't see there is anything you can do, anything you can offer, any appeasement or concession....

CARLSON: But as a practical matter?

MAY: As a practical matter, there is only one way to win when you're in a war. And if you have people trying to kill you, you must attack them at some point and remove them. That's what they were trying to do. The fact that this leader lives among civilians all the time, he and -- uses civilians as shields shouldn't stop the Israelis from trying to get him.


ZOGBY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) civilians, and that's not the way to deal with the problem either. Come on. Let's get real.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: We have got people on both sides...

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: We have people on both sides who are committing murder. We have to find a way to stop it.

MAY: No, it's morally (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Stop it. If the Palestinians would stop the terrorism, they would have an independent state in six months.

(CROSSTALK)

ZOGBY: ... there is nothing but moral equivalence. Dead on both sides, victims on both sides, and we have to find a way to stop it, not take sides.

MAY: Stop the terrorism, don't ask for concessions for the terrorists.

BEGALA: Don't you see a difference, though, between what they metaphorically call collateral damage, which means innocent people being killed, which clearly happened here, apparently happened here -- clearly happened in Afghanistan when the American military was acting from 50,000 feet up and bombing villages, and the intentional targeting of civilians, which Hamas does? That's a huge difference. That's a difference between right and wrong.

ZOGBY: You know something? Unfortunately, your applause aside, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't cut. And I'll tell you why.

BEGALA: But Bush is not a murderer because we had civilian casualties in Afghanistan, right? He was doing the right thing.

ZOGBY: My friend, my friend, if I wanted to get that lady in the red hat right now and I took a shotgun and fired at the audience, I could say with all the people around her getting wounded, oh, it was just collateral damage, I didn't mean it, guys, really, forgive me.

The fact is is that when you do what they've done, you are responsible for the deaths of the innocent people around, because you did not do anything but put them at risk.

BEGALA: How is that different from our country...

ZOGBY: There is no difference. It is the same.

BEGALA: Our country is not responsible for the civilian deaths.

ZOGBY: Oh, you know something? We are -- we are responsible for civilian deaths in Afghanistan, because we used bad intelligence, we did not use the best of our abilities, and in fact, we victimized a lot of innocent people, and it's a shame.

CARLSON: Unfortunately, we are going to have to break now. Just as I'm getting irritated, we're going to have to switch topics and go to a commercial break. James Zogby, thanks very much for coming over and joining us. Cliff May, thank you.

ZOGBY: And next time, I'll wear a suit.

posted by Howard @ 7/23/2002 01:17:22 PM